SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Everyone’s experience is different. Mine, I underestimated the things EXWH was capable of doing to me.

I have deliberately been NC for years. When I caught him in his secret second life, I said to him because it was that time of year and I was naive at the time "you could kill the Easter bunny and serve him for dinner and everyone would say great meal". He looked me dead in the eye and said "yes I could".

Even then, I failed to understand the danger presented by the lack of conscience (whether inate or lulled to sleep by whatever takes over the minds and bodies of active cheaters) because I saw things through my own lens of who I I am and how I saw the world. His lens (moral code if you will) was covertly very very different than mine.

I wish you protection and peace as you go through your situation.

Thank you, Shehawk.

Are you able to go away on a holiday by yourself or with a friend/relative? I found that when my ex wasn't around I felt a lot better, not good obviously, but a bit lighter. Sometimes a break can help allow you just to be free from responsibilities, i.e if you need to stare at the sea for 5 hours straight to think through things, then you can. I see you are in Spain which is a beautiful country and so you wouldn't even have to go too far.

At this juncture what you have to realise is you'll never get a word you want out of this man, if he thinks it is what you want. He sounds almost like he takes pleasure in your pain and all this Stoicism stuff is a bullshit answer because he can't say why he acts the way he does, I expect he knows he'll sound like a monster.

People can get caught up and waste their lives wishing for what won't come. You see that sometimes with BS who want to know all the details of their spouse's affair, they can go for years wasting their lives fighting to know every detail. Once you know enough to know you need to leave, then let the rest go because all he'll be doing is being allowed to keep harming you even once you have divorced. You know enough here to know he isn't going to say he is sorry, or admit it even if he did feel it, which is questionable. Don't allow him to have more control of your life by wishing for it.

I talked to an AI about this and got a few bullet points on stoicism, infidelity, and negative emotions...

"Stoicism teaches that the only true good is virtue (wisdom, justice, courage, and temperance), and all else (e.g., pleasure, wealth) is "indifferent" unless used virtuously.

Infidelity typically involves deception, betrayal, and harm to others, which conflicts with the Stoic virtue of justice (acting fairly and honoring commitments). A Stoic would likely view cheating as a failure to uphold moral integrity and respect for one’s partner, making it incompatible with a virtuous life.

The husband’s infidelity suggests a lack of temperance (self-control) and justice, contradicting Stoic ethics. His claim to follow Stoicism seems hollow here.

Remorse and Regret in Stoicism: Stoics aim to manage emotions through reason, not eliminate them. They distinguish between destructive passions (e.g., irrational grief or anger) and rational emotions (e.g., joy or caution) that align with virtue.

Remorse or regret for wrongdoing isn’t inherently "negative" in Stoicism if it’s rational and leads to self-improvement. A Stoic would reflect on their actions, recognize a moral failing (like infidelity), and take responsibility to align future behavior with virtue. Marcus Aurelius, for example, often wrote about self-examination and correcting one’s errors (e.g., Meditations 8.47: "If you have done something wrong, blame yourself and not the world").

The husband’s refusal to apologize or show remorse because he "doesn’t believe in negative feelings" misinterprets Stoicism. A true Stoic would acknowledge the harm caused by infidelity, express rational remorse (not wallowing, but accountability), and work to make amends, as this aligns with justice and wisdom."

I'm not a Stoic, nor have I really looked into it, but it appears your husband is twisting it to hide behind and avoid taking accountability for his actions, which is in direct conflict to the philosophy.

marriedaliar - of course you can't understand your husband. Your're a normal, decent person. He's not. I think he's a sadist, and possibly a psychopath. These people hide themselves very well until they get you under their power, if they can. One of their favorite tactics is to isolate their victims. They try to do this physically if they can - you'd be amazed at how many stories of this type of unfaithful moving their spouse victim to some place where they don't have contacts. Often they make is as a business thing or improved lifestyle - oh, I have these business ops here, we'll make a lot of money, we'll live in the country, it will only be temporary, etc.....and the betrayed spouse becomes socially and often financially isolated. THIS IS A DELIBERATE TACTIC. It puts the victim (and don't take this as a disparaging term - it could be any of us in your shoes) at their mercy. They may even try to make you think it was YOUR idea rather than theirs They are very cunning and manipulative. This is not like the ordinary wayward spouse who falls into an affair for various reasons....it's a deliberate plan they come up with to get you under their thumb as a victim. And then they use psychological tactics of belittling, gaslighting, subtle insults, making you doubt yourself - it's a whole program of psychological disintegration - to get you completely under their control

You can't really understand this because.....then you'd be a sicko too. Normal people can't even comprehend that there ARE people like this and this is what they are doing. It's hard to even explain it because....he seems like such a nice man. He's got a good act. Your parents should have told you right from the start that they didn't like him but people are afraid to say these things.

So, that's really my explanation for this behavior. Some of them may study these tactics, but I think much of it is innate - they just seem to know how to do this stuff. One of the tactics is to do things intermittently, there's a name for this thing in psychology, but I forget. They'll be nice to you and then you think he's not so bad, he does love me, blah blah, and then they'll do something rotten or hurtful so they try to switch it up. This is NOT the common type of wayward spouse, by the way - there are quite a few, I think our modern age tends to produce them, but your husband sounds like an extreme case. Obviously the whole thing about the Stoics is just bullshit to give him a built in excuse and explanation for his behavior. I doubt if any of the Stoics actually advocated devastating your poor wife and/or family over your adultery. In fact, I think they'd be against adultery because it disrupts the social order and it shows a lack of self control. Stoics, to my understanding, were more about having self control and discipline to meet the conditions that were thrown at you rather than disrupting marriages and the social order YOURSELF. He's misusing their philosophy.

At any rate, DON'T WORRY ABOUT WHAT HE'S LIKE OR WHY HE'S DOING THIS. HE'S A PSYCHOPATH - AND I DO MEAN THAT. You can predict or be aware of some patterns in behavior as I've explained, but you can't really understand it because they're not like the rest of us. They're wired differently. Don't waste time trying to understand this. YOU CAN'T.

If you want to see this in action, the best example that I know is the Ingrid Bergman, Charles Boyer movie GASLIGHT - it came out in the early 40s, if I recall correctly, and it really shows the psycho job a determined person can do to another, for reasons the poor wife can't even imagine. It's set in the Victorian era but it still applies today and holds up very well. DO NOT WATCH THIS WITH HIM. In fact, let him know as little as possible about what you are doing and do not hesitate to lie to him. He's not your friend, he's actually an enemy who wants you under his heel.

I assume you're from the US? If you need funds, the US embassy might be able to help you get back to the US. I would return back to your homeland if you can, and initiate divorce from there. I think you should work on a divorce, DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER RECONCILING, and be careful not to get pregnant. Do what you can in secret as much as possible and don't discuss his bullshit ideas with him. Just smile pleasantly, be as pleasant as you can, but perhaps hide behind not feeling physically well. And then plan your escape. The only way to deal with these people is to escape them. Try to keep as much as you want to or planning as secret as possible, don't leave things out where he can see them and pass code everything. Try to have your own money that he does not have access to. But I would go back to your home country as soon as you can even if you have to leave some things behind.

I'm sure you think I'm exaggerating....but I'm not. He's a classic case. Also, if he even seems to be getting at all physically abusive or violent with you, get out right away. Do not trust this man. Focus on escape and separating your lives and becoming independent again.

There is nothing to go back to - we moved our entire lives here, we are residents here now. Going back would create way too much stress for me now, I already have too much stress. I'm leaving. I told his mom. I'm not on the fence. But at the moment we have IHS. I'm trying to keep it as low contact as possible but it's a challenge given if 2 people are in the house they are never more than 20 feet apart. I don't know if my h is a narcissist or not. He had some very disordered parents - spectacularly disordered. And he certainly displays many of the behaviors of his parents (his dad was a secret bigamist and when he remarried it was to a woman 50 years younger). I spent more than 40 days enduring silent treatment last year. He knows I'm leaving and he's not doing anything to help speed it along because being married is advantageous to him, but nor is he going to do anything to stop me because the price of me staying (him being honest, remorseful and committed to change) is a price he is not willing to pay - he has clearly stated this. There is no going back. He has even said, now that I've consulted a lawyer, that I've done too many things, "crossed too many lines" in the past six months for him to want to stay married to me. So he's trying to hurt me still - I want do divorce him for cheating, lying, not telling me the truth, showing no remorse or willingness to change. He wants to divorce me for holding him accountable. I wish there was a shortcut through the grief. Even knowing he was never fully committed does not erase all the banked emotion from our lives together - we ran companies together, traveled the world, did extreme sports. Our lives have been deeply enmeshed, both of us working from home offices the last 20 years, raising a daughter (we had 50% custody of his youngest). All these good memories feel tainted, knowing as I do now that during any memory I can conjure, there is the knowledge that he joined a dozen dating apps and so in the background of every day, every event, was him swiping right, texting (and god knows what else), checking notifications, arranging for dates. "I wasn't trying to replace you" is the closest he's come to saying he's sorry. I told him yes, it's clear that you wanted to have your cake and eat it too because that was working out great for you.

I'm tired of thinking about him. I'm tired of crying. I wish I was as noncommittal as he seems to be. He walks around in a great mood, clearly totally untroubled by regret, this sudden change in plans for the rest of our lives attributable to him not wanting to be honest or change. I guess I'm just ranting now. Soon my new place will be ready and I can get away from having to see him constantly, that will help.

[This message edited by marriedaliar at 12:46 PM, Tuesday, September 30th]

I guess I'm just ranting now.

Rant away. It helps. We have a great big, collective, and very understanding shoulder for you to lean on and get it out. You're being heard. Most of us know some of what you're going through. Your feelings are legitimate and understandable.

This is the perfect venue for venting ranting raging Etc ;) He believes that if he shows any remorse, any regrets, apologies, tries to make amends, that will alter the power dynamic in your relationship and he just cannot bring himself to do that

Once you take back just the smallest part of the power dynamic you will feel like the clouds have parted, the sun started Shining, and you will have better Clarity of thought. It is truly amazing once you get to the other side and feel like your feet are planted back on the ground

See the quote under my post? That’s Epictetus, a key-figure in Stoicm. That line/quote sort-of embraces all of the basics of Stoicsm – if you aren’t happy where you are (with "happy" basically being anything that makes life better) then it’s because YOU have decided to be unhappy – mainly by indecision. However to the Stoics "happiness" was based on virtue and living a good life in a virtuous way. A true Stoic could be unhappy eating cake, but happy starving to death because he virtuously gave his last crumb to a needing child.
The Stoics were pretty unforgiving to non-virtuous actions: You can drown just as much in a foot of water as at the bottom of the ocean is my recollection of one of their quotes. You are just as far from virtuous if you steal ten bucks as if you stole a thousand.

Yes – they didn’t believe in dwelling in remorse or guilt. That would be remaining unhappy because of reasons of themselves. They believed in acknowledging your wrongdoings, learning from them and making amends. Both to others and to yourself.

Treating someone unvirtuously – badly – immorally and recognizing your did so is not Stoic. There is another more appropriate term for it – also from Greek: Narcissism. Based on what you share that describes him a lot better.

So we have sort-of established he’s no Stoic. But why don’t you become one?
Not happy where you are, so it’s YOUR job and mission to move things along.
Don’t depend at all on his parents. Just fill in the paperwork, meet all the deadlines, push the process... and eventually you can remove him and his impact on your life.

I deeply appreciate everyone who has read and commented, and I also appreciate the lurkers, as I was for so long. I see you xo Bigger, I think I will, thank you for shining your light my way. I think I'll make a good Stoic. I always knew the WH was full of shit with his bad read on Stoicism. He hasn't even studied it, he just read a book from the 70s by a dude who read Epicetus. So he's a second hand Stoic,using this philosophy as a reason to defend getting his way.

Not long ago a divorce coach asked me to describe for her a time where we compromised. And I could not. And I was shocked. In all major decisions, in all places where I said "hmmm I don't know" he has just railroaded us into the decision he already made. Some I was okay with, some made me cry, some are still terrorizing me this very moment.

I wish I could wrap a cloak of cold rage around me until I never have to see him. I hate that I feel grief. He doesn't deserve it.

WB1340: It is truly amazing once you get to the other side and feel like your feet are planted back on the ground

I wish I could print this on a bracelet and wear it. I hope, expect, know you are right. I can't feel it yet, but I do know it.

I would suggest to stay out of the house as much as possible. Very long walks, hang out at the park, shopping areas etc. anytime they aren’t in your physical presence is a weight off your shoulders and will be a relief on your brain chemistry.

I am going to try to scare you. Ted Bundy killed, probably 100 young women who trusted him. Very nice looking man, very charming man, scary as hell. The boogie man often looks like the perfect employee, the perfect neighbor, the perfect husband or wife, the perfect son or daughter. They have learned from infancy how to present a face that looks normal. They are anything but normal.
We all want you to get away from him safely as soon as possible. Since you live away from your original home you probably feel somewhat trapped. Your religious feelings don’t need to be Catholic but I suggest finding a priest. They often work with toxic families. I am sure there is a woman’s group somewhere close by. Be proactive, but get away from this monster.

I appreciate your concern but warning me my husband is potentially a killer to alarm me into moving away from him is extremely stressful. I CANNOT MOVE AWAY FROM HIM. He has total financial control. I'm working on it. I know you are doing it from a place of caring and just wanting me to be safe and I am listening. I want to reassure you that I do not trust him and I am careful around him. However, I have told a lot of people - family, close friends - what he's done, and furthermore he knows I've told people (it made him furious). I have no fear of him - if I meet with an "accident" he'd be the first and only suspect, my sister and best friend would both be over here on the first plane, sharing all the evidence of his motivation to harm me. Our workers have heard him yelling at me and once trashing the apartment - he is 100% aware he could never get away with harming me. Besides, I think for him it's much more fun for him to emotionally harm me - it's been so effective to date, and that's what I'm trying to change, though I can't change much else (yet). I"m seeing an IC. I really want to release, forever, this need to hear him tell the truth and seem remorseful that he's blown up our beautiful life. But each time it comes up he says he doesn't want a divorce, I'm the one burning it all down. The unfairness of this - I wish it didn't eat at my soul.

He has total financial control

Friend – I don’t want to scare you and I’m not so concerned that he’s going to do you physical harm. But... the more you share the more narcissistic traits I see in him.

You place your location as Spain and mention that you moved there. I’m not certain what country you married in and/or have legal residency in and it doesn’t matter (you don’t have to share). But I can tell you that in Spain (and most Western-European countries) marriage creates a financial union. It’s not "his" wages and "your" wages, his/your debt and so on. That you feel like he has total financial control... that makes me think he’s using money to control you. I encourage you to get your legal standing clear.

I encourage you to get help. One good thing about most WE countries is easy access to abuse helplines. Don’t be fooled into thinking these helplines are only for battered women – financial and emotional abuse is addressed there too. They can guide you to know your rights, what public support you might be entitled to and how best to process the divorce.

The difference between reconciliation and divorce is that to reconcile both need to be willing to do the work. As-is he isn’t. He doesn’t want to reconcile but to continue with the marriage. To divorce it’s enough that one of you wants to divorce.
He can "not want a divorce" for the rest of his life – long after the documents are signed and you moved on.

I am writing what I write because the only predictable thing about him is his unpredictability. Where you live are there women’s shelters? Talk to the cops. I know you feel frozen but in the states you can ask for help and I assume wherever you are it’s the same.